文字實(shí)錄 · Transcript

中國(guó)是否需要設(shè)立專(zhuān)門(mén)的反家庭暴力法？立法者已經(jīng)進(jìn)入了最后的立項(xiàng)論證階段，評(píng)估立法的社會(huì)和法律環(huán)境是否成熟。

Lawmakers are entering their last stage of assessing China's need for a law against domestic violence and if the country's social and legal environments are ready for one.

在上一期的《解析中國(guó)》中，我們的嘉賓提到中國(guó)立法者和公民在設(shè)立反家暴法時(shí)需要思考的一些問(wèn)題，比如家庭暴力的定義以及取證的難度。

In our last episode of Digest China, our guests mentioned several issues Chinese lawmakers and citizens have to think about when legislating domestic violence, for example, the concept of domestic violence itself and the difficulty in proving it.

究竟什么算是家庭暴力呢？毆打？當(dāng)然。那么夫妻之間吵架爭(zhēng)執(zhí)呢？這些在大多數(shù)家庭中都有發(fā)生。我們?cè)谝粋€(gè)叫helpguide.org的網(wǎng)站上找到了一個(gè)很有意思的清單。它列舉了一系列家庭中遭受虐待的跡象，該網(wǎng)站說(shuō)這些跡象通常會(huì)逐漸上升至暴力行為。

What really counts as domestic violence? Beating? Yes. But what about fights and arguments between couples? These things happen in most households. Well, we found an interesting checklist from a website called helpguide.org. It provides a list of signs of domestic abuse, which the website says often escalate to violence.

第一類(lèi)，關(guān)于你的想法和感受。你害怕你的另一半嗎？你會(huì)刻意避免一些話(huà)題嗎？你感覺(jué)你做什么都不對(duì)嗎？

First category, about your inner thoughts and feelings. Do you feel afraid of your partner? Do you avoid certain topics? Do you feel you can't do anything right?

接下來(lái)的問(wèn)題是關(guān)于你的伴侶的行為。你的伴侶輕視你、批評(píng)你、或是對(duì)你態(tài)度很差，讓你在親朋好友面前感覺(jué)十分尷尬？你的伴侶是否威脅要帶走或傷害你的孩子？或者你的伴侶表現(xiàn)出對(duì)你過(guò)度的控制欲，比如控制你用錢(qián)或時(shí)時(shí)刻刻監(jiān)視你？

Then, there are questions about your partner's behaviors. Does your partner belittle you, criticize you or treat you so badly that you are embarrassed for your friends or family to see? Does your partner threaten to take your child away or harm him or her? Or does your partner act excessively controlling over you like limit your access to money or check up on you constantly?

然而在法律上，對(duì)這些問(wèn)題回答“是”, 是否就能夠算作家庭暴力？如果可以，又怎么樣去證明呢？

Well, legislatively, can the "yeses" to these questions count as domestic violence? And if so, how can they be proven?

馮欣：很多時(shí)候，我們有這樣一個(gè)問(wèn)題，到底什么樣的行為算是家庭暴力？

Feng Xin: Very often we face the question, what can be counted as domestic violence?

林建軍：所謂家庭暴力，這個(gè)主體一定是家庭成員。暴力行為方式可以包括身體暴力，然后還應(yīng)該涵蓋性暴力，精神暴力以及經(jīng)濟(jì)控制。結(jié)果實(shí)際上都是一樣的, 就是會(huì)造成施暴人對(duì)受害人的控制、占有、支配。經(jīng)濟(jì)控制是什么意思呢？比如夫妻雙方, 一方對(duì)另外一方財(cái)務(wù)上的支出嚴(yán)格地控制。實(shí)際上，它的后果一樣是損害了另外一方的自尊和身心。理論上應(yīng)當(dāng)把它視為是一種暴力的形式，但是和剛才的精神暴力是一樣的，我個(gè)人認(rèn)為這個(gè)操作起來(lái)也是難度非常大的，主要是取證很難，現(xiàn)在不宜去規(guī)制它。如果我們現(xiàn)在去規(guī)制它，可能會(huì)出現(xiàn)什么呢？寫(xiě)進(jìn)了法律, 但是兌現(xiàn)性極差, 兌現(xiàn)率極低, 等于法律的權(quán)威性大打折扣，但是不代表我理論上不認(rèn)同它是一種暴力形式。

Lin Jianjun: In terms of domestic violence, the subjects must be family members. Violence can include physical violence, sexual abuse, emotional abuse and economic deprivation. The nature (of these behaviors) is the same, which is the perpetrator controls, possesses and manipulates the victim. What does economic deprivation mean? Take couples as an example; one person strictly controls the other on financial expenses. The result is that it hurts the other's self-esteem and mental health. Theoretically, it should be considered as a form of violence. However, similar to emotional abuse, I personally think there are a lot of operational difficulties, mainly because they are hard to prove. I think currently we should not regulate it. If we do it now, what might happen? We write it into the law，but are unable to exercise it or hardly carry it out. We will significantly undermine the authority of the law. But this doesn't mean I do not recognize them as forms of violence.

馮欣：定義還有一個(gè)問(wèn)題，就是它包含的人群。家庭暴力是夫妻之間？還是父母子女之間？ 甚至是同居、戀愛(ài)、離異這些關(guān)系？還有一種更遠(yuǎn)的就是同性之間的暴力。那么，您怎么看呢？我們的法律會(huì)不會(huì)或者應(yīng)不應(yīng)該包括這些所有的關(guān)系？

Feng Xin: There is another question about the definition: its coverage. Is domestic violence between couples, parents and children, cohabitating couples, dating couples or divorced couples? Also, is violence between same-sex couples domestic violence? What is your opinion? Will and should the law cover all these relationships?

林建軍：嚴(yán)格地從法律意義上說(shuō)，同居、離婚以后的, 還有其他的伙伴，包括戀愛(ài)等等的關(guān)系不屬于家庭成員。但是，就其性質(zhì)來(lái)說(shuō)，與家庭暴力是一樣的，因?yàn)槎加杏H情聯(lián)系, 而且都有感情糾葛，發(fā)生問(wèn)題之后也很難像一般的陌生人之間的暴力通過(guò)不接觸就避免這種暴力的發(fā)生。所以從國(guó)際上來(lái)看, 目前對(duì)家庭暴力的保護(hù)通常也涵蓋到剛才說(shuō)到的同居伙伴, 還有離異以后的前配偶這類(lèi)的群體。那么具體到我們的立法，即使是叫“家庭”暴力, 也可以通過(guò)立法技術(shù)來(lái)解決這個(gè)問(wèn)題。同居的，我們?cè)诹⒎夹g(shù)上, 用“準(zhǔn)用本法”就可以了。

Lin Jianjun: Strictly, from a legal perspective, cohabitating and divorced couples, as well as other partner relationships like dating and other types of partnerships, are not family members. But their nature is the same as domestic violence, because they all involve love connections and affection. It is different from violence between strangers, which you can avoid by not having contacts with each other. Internationally, domestic violence usually covers cohabitating couples as well as divorcees. When it comes to legislation, even if we (don't) call those situations "domestic" violence, we can extend the law to include them. We can use the phrase "law shall apply" when talking about cohabitating couples.

馮欣：那取證上面有難度嗎？

Feng Xin: What about getting evidence? Is it difficult?

林建軍：對(duì)警察來(lái)說(shuō)障礙并不是很大。但我覺(jué)得主要不是警察取證困難，而是很多當(dāng)事人最初根本不會(huì)想到他打我一次我就去離婚，所以，沒(méi)有這種意識(shí)，而且在暴力發(fā)生的時(shí)候，也很難去顧及通過(guò)什么形式把證據(jù)固定下來(lái)。這確實(shí)有難度。

Lin Jianjun: It's not too difficult for police. I don't think that's the main difficulty. Many women hardly seek divorce just because they were beaten once. They don't have that intention. When violence happens, it's very difficult to pay attention to keeping evidence in any form. It is quite hard.

馮欣：那現(xiàn)在法院在受理家暴案件的時(shí)候，一般會(huì)碰到哪些問(wèn)題或者困難呢？

Feng Xin: When courts deal with cases of domestic violence, what problems or issues will they often encounter?

林建軍：法院主要問(wèn)題是當(dāng)事人說(shuō)（有）家庭暴力, 常常有的是舉不出來(lái)太多的證據(jù)證明家庭暴力。那法院是不是采信, 這個(gè)同樣也是有難度的。

Lin Jianjun: The main problem for courts is that often when plaintiffs say there is domestic violence they can't prove it. Whether or not to believe it is a problem for courts.

馮欣：很多人說(shuō)家庭暴力，顧名思義, 那是發(fā)生在家庭里面的事情。很多人擔(dān)憂(yōu)我們出臺(tái)這樣一部法律, 會(huì)不會(huì)使公權(quán)力過(guò)多地介入到私人生活中。這個(gè)您怎么看？

Feng Xin: Many people say domestic violence is obviously something that happens within the family. Many worry that once we pass such a law,it will enable too much state power to intrude on private lives. What do you think?

林建軍：家庭暴力是已經(jīng)發(fā)生一方對(duì)另一方施暴了，這已經(jīng)不是說(shuō)兩口子吵吵架這樣的行為了。只要是發(fā)生了暴力行為，實(shí)際上就是侵犯了對(duì)方的人權(quán), 侵犯了對(duì)方的權(quán)利。所有侵犯公民權(quán)利的行為，當(dāng)然應(yīng)該由國(guó)家公權(quán)力出面去干預(yù)它, 不應(yīng)（因?yàn)椋┧诨閮?nèi)就使施暴人受到豁免。不可以。

Lin Jianjun: Domestic violence is already assault from one party to another. It is no longer simple altercations between couples. As long as it's violence, it's a violation of the other person's human rights. It’s a violation of the other person's human rights. In any violation of citizens' rights, state power should definitely intervene. The perpetrator shouldn't be exempt just because (the violence) happens within a marriage. Definitely not.

紅楓婦女心理咨詢(xún)服務(wù)中心是一個(gè)非政府組織。它于2012年4月做了一個(gè)網(wǎng)絡(luò)調(diào)查, 發(fā)現(xiàn)在1800多位受訪(fǎng)者中，有55%的人曾經(jīng)遭受過(guò)某種形式的家庭暴力: 從輕微的身體傷害如扇耳光，到精神虐待，比如對(duì)方經(jīng)常性的忽視和責(zé)罵。盡管調(diào)查問(wèn)卷的問(wèn)題可以具體到像我們?yōu)槟信e的那樣, 法律能否具有同樣的操作性呢？它能否達(dá)到立法者倡導(dǎo)的如教育和預(yù)防的目標(biāo), 而不是僅僅成為一個(gè)指導(dǎo)手冊(cè)呢？我們帶著這些問(wèn)題采訪(fǎng)了王行娟, 她于1988年創(chuàng)建了紅楓婦女心理咨詢(xún)服務(wù)中心。

Maple Women's Psychological Counseling Center, a non-governmental organization, did an Internet survey in April 2012. It found nearly 55 percent of some 1,800 respondents have suffered various forms of domestic violence ranging from minor physical assaults, like face slapping, to mental abuse, like constant ignoring and blaming. Although survey questions can be as specific as the ones we showed you in our program, But can the law be just as operational? Can it achieve lawmakers' goals such as education and prevention rather than becoming a mere guidebook? We directed these questions to Wang Xingjuan，who founded the Maple Women's Psychological Counseling Center in 1988.

王行娟: 如果你是輕微傷害，你要到法院去告都不受理的，就到了這種程度。所以我就覺(jué)得一定要增加對(duì)輕微傷害, 可以輕罪，也要入罪。要進(jìn)行判決。第二點(diǎn)意見(jiàn)，預(yù)防和制止家庭暴力需要有社會(huì)的整個(gè)支持系統(tǒng)。從頭到最后, 到最后挨打以后怎樣來(lái)進(jìn)行保護(hù)，這個(gè)支持系統(tǒng)很重要。那么支持系統(tǒng)為什么建立不起來(lái)？那主要還是沒(méi)有經(jīng)費(fèi)，所以一定要有專(zhuān)項(xiàng)經(jīng)費(fèi)。這個(gè)法律當(dāng)初要提出來(lái)要設(shè)立反家庭暴力專(zhuān)項(xiàng)經(jīng)費(fèi)，有這個(gè)錢(qián)，它才能夠（防止家暴）。第三個(gè)意見(jiàn)就是說(shuō)要設(shè)立專(zhuān)門(mén)的機(jī)構(gòu), 就是說(shuō)救助系統(tǒng)怎么樣完善。這也是國(guó)家的責(zé)任, 一定要很具體。否則法律即使出臺(tái)了, 它還是保證不了婦女的合法權(quán)益。

Wang Xingjuan: If you have minor injuries, courts won't hear your case even if you file suit. It's like that. So I think (the law) must specify cases of minor injuries. They can be misdemeanors, but they are crimes. The court must bring it to trial. Secondly, to stop and prevent domestic violence, we need a whole social support system from head to toe –for example, how a victim can be protected after she was beaten. This support system is very important. But why can't we establish such a system? Money is the main reason. Therefore, we must have special funding. When the law proposal was first brought out, it specified we needed to establish such special funding. Only when we have the money can we (do the job). Thirdly, we need to establish special institutions. It is the government's responsibility to improve the rescue system. The law has to be very specific. Otherwise, even if it's passed， it still can't protect women's rights.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國(guó)預(yù)算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國(guó)的預(yù)算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學(xué)生就業(yè)難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經(jīng)常聽(tīng)到畢業(yè)生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國(guó)有沒(méi)有足夠的養(yǎng)老錢(qián)？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領(lǐng)多少錢(qián)？到什么年齡應(yīng)該計(jì)劃養(yǎng)老問(wèn)題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國(guó)人是否應(yīng)該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會(huì)保障部提出，未來(lái)會(huì)逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會(huì)原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國(guó)人：中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國(guó)人日益增多，是否意味著中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個(gè)概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：難點(diǎn)

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國(guó)》探討中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法進(jìn)程中長(zhǎng)期存在的阻力和分歧。