文字實(shí)錄·Transcript

馮欣：據(jù)全國(guó)人大的消息，從七月到八月，來(lái)自全國(guó)的2萬(wàn)多公民就中國(guó)的《預(yù)算法》修改草案向全國(guó)人大提出意見(jiàn)和建議。截至8月5日，全國(guó)人大共收到33萬(wàn)多條意見(jiàn)和建議，這是自2005年全國(guó)人大在網(wǎng)上征集公眾意見(jiàn)以來(lái)，收到回復(fù)數(shù)第二多的一次。但是在多大程度上公眾真正關(guān)心《預(yù)算法》的修改？普通人又如何能弄明白中國(guó)的預(yù)算？

Feng Xin: Between July and August, more than 20,000 members of the public made comments and suggestions to the National People's Congress, or the NPC, about how to amend China's Budget Law. That's according to the top legislature. The NPC received nearly 330,000 opinions as of Aug 5, which is the second most since the legislature began seeking public opinions online in 2005. Experts say this shows an unusual public interest in government levies and spending. But to what extent does the public really care about amending the Budget Law? And, to go even future, how can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?

街訪：您聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)《預(yù)算法》嗎？

Reporter：Have you heard of the Budget Law?

受訪者：沒(méi)有。

Respondent: No.

受訪者：沒(méi)有。

Respondent: No.

受訪者：沒(méi)有，沒(méi)聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)。

Respondent: No, never.

受訪者：有聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)，但不是特別了解。

Respondent: Yes, but not a lot.

受訪者：聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)。《預(yù)算法》可能是針對(duì)大型企業(yè)單位設(shè)定的。

Respondent: Yes, I have. I think the Budget Law is specially designed for big companies.

街訪：那您知不知道國(guó)家的預(yù)算是用來(lái)做什么的？

Reporter：What do you think a country's budget is used for?

受訪者：我覺(jué)得預(yù)算應(yīng)該是讓人民監(jiān)督政府來(lái)進(jìn)行每筆財(cái)務(wù)支出的。

Respondent: I think it's used for the people to monitor the government's spending.

受訪者：可能是跟下一年的財(cái)政有關(guān)系吧。

Respondent: Maybe it has to do with next year's finances.

受訪者：（做）計(jì)劃，我個(gè)人是這樣認(rèn)為的。

Respondent: Making plans, I think.

受訪者：預(yù)算應(yīng)該是今后幾年的一個(gè)財(cái)務(wù)支出計(jì)劃。

Respondent: It's a plan about future expenditures.

受訪者：每年的各方面，包括教育、農(nóng)業(yè)、西部大開(kāi)發(fā)也算，各方面的基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施的投資。

Respondent: It covers education, agriculture – the Development of the West Regions (national project) also counts – and all sorts of investments in infrastructure.

街訪：您覺(jué)得國(guó)家的收入和支出跟普通人，或者說(shuō)跟您個(gè)人有什么關(guān)系？

Reporter: What does the country's revenue and spending have anything to do with you?

受訪者：這個(gè)關(guān)系還挺大的吧，但平常好像不太關(guān)注這個(gè)，不知道從哪關(guān)注。

Respondent: I think it has a lot to do with me, but I didn't pay much attention to it. I didn't know how.

受訪者：覺(jué)得沒(méi)什么關(guān)系吧。

Not very much.

受訪者：跟個(gè)人有很大的關(guān)系，我是個(gè)農(nóng)民，農(nóng)民現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)接近城市養(yǎng)老的系列。

Respondent: I think it has a lot to do with me. I'm a farmer. The farmers' pension system is becoming similar to the city's.

受訪者：當(dāng)然有關(guān)系，因?yàn)閲?guó)家使用的錢(qián)財(cái)都是咱們老百姓的錢(qián)。因?yàn)樗峭ㄟ^(guò)稅收征收上來(lái)的錢(qián)。

Respondent: Of course it's related (to us). All the money the country spends comes from us, the people, from the taxes we pay.

街訪：對(duì)于國(guó)家的預(yù)算，有哪些是您想知道但是卻不知道的？

Reporter: In terms of the country's budget, is there anything you'd like to know?

受訪者：我之前有看過(guò)一個(gè)關(guān)于美國(guó)和中國(guó)的對(duì)比，美國(guó)的預(yù)算可以說(shuō)做得非常細(xì)，而且做得基本上面向公眾，公開(kāi)的。而國(guó)內(nèi)好像大部分人如果真的想了解，還挺難了解細(xì)節(jié)的。

Respondent: I read something about comparing China's and the United States' budget. The US budget is said to be very detailed, open and transparent, whereas in China, it would be quite difficult for most people to know details.

受訪者：比如你政府的錢(qián)是怎么花的，預(yù)算執(zhí)行情況，但是我們都不知道。

Respondent: Like how the government spends the money and implements the budget, we don't know.

受訪者：從新聞角度知道的就是三公費(fèi)，我覺(jué)得這些只是特別小的一個(gè)側(cè)面。從大的側(cè)面來(lái)講，比如說(shuō)大的國(guó)營(yíng)企業(yè)，它的經(jīng)營(yíng)效果，經(jīng)營(yíng)情況，老百姓一般是很少很少知道的。包括一些項(xiàng)目的開(kāi)發(fā)，該不該開(kāi)發(fā)，應(yīng)該如何去開(kāi)發(fā)，老百姓不清楚這些事情，他也不關(guān)心這些事情，但是這些事我覺(jué)得國(guó)家有義務(wù)去公布。

Respondent: We often hear news about "sangong spending" (official receptions, cars and visits), but I think this is only a small facet of the issue. Speaking about a larger facet, people rarely know how State-owned enterprises operate.There are also some projects. Should they be launched in the first place? And how should they be carried out? Ordinary people don't know about these. Nor do they care. But I think the government has obligations to make them known.

那么國(guó)家的預(yù)算究竟跟普通人有什么關(guān)系？我采訪了劉劍文，他是人大立法者的顧問(wèn)之一。

How is China's budget relevant to individuals? I talked to Liu Jianwen, a consultant to the NPC's lawmakers.

馮欣：劉教授，我聽(tīng)您曾經(jīng)說(shuō)過(guò)要把《預(yù)算法》從神壇上拿下來(lái)，讓它走入民間，因?yàn)樗兔總€(gè)人的衣食住行都有關(guān)系。您為什么這么說(shuō)呢？國(guó)家的預(yù)算和普通人到底有什么關(guān)系？

Feng Xin: Professor Liu, you once said we need to take the Budget Law from the secrete altar to ordinary people's lives, because it's related to everyone. Why did you say this? How is a country's budget relevant to individuals?

劉劍文：我們的預(yù)算長(zhǎng)期以來(lái)是不公開(kāi)的，老百姓對(duì)于預(yù)算問(wèn)題不大了解。因?yàn)轭A(yù)算是涉及到國(guó)家的一個(gè)財(cái)政計(jì)劃，就是像一個(gè)家庭一樣的，我這一個(gè)家庭，每年每月每日有多少收入，有多少支出是一樣的道理。從收的方面，國(guó)家的收入主要來(lái)自哪些方面。一個(gè)核心問(wèn)題是稅收問(wèn)題，還有一個(gè)收費(fèi)問(wèn)題。因?yàn)閲?guó)家收得越多，意味著老百姓手中的財(cái)富越少。它是一個(gè)相互關(guān)聯(lián)很強(qiáng)的問(wèn)題。

Liu Jianwen: Our budgeting has always been opaque, so people do not know much about it. Budget is a country's financial plans – just like a family – how much money do we make and spend every day, month and year? From an income point of view, the core of a country's income is levies and charges. The more money the country taxes, the less wealth the people have. There's a strong correlation.

馮欣：此消彼長(zhǎng)的關(guān)系？

Feng Xin: Like a counter balance?

劉劍文：對(duì)，像我們大家關(guān)心的問(wèn)題，像個(gè)人所得稅的問(wèn)題、房產(chǎn)稅的問(wèn)題、車(chē)船稅的問(wèn)題，這是大家感覺(jué)非常明顯的。那么從支的方面來(lái)講，教育，特別是義務(wù)教育，義務(wù)教育的經(jīng)費(fèi)從哪里來(lái)，它得靠國(guó)家的財(cái)政支出。還有我們現(xiàn)在講的社保問(wèn)題，甚至包括我們說(shuō)，在一個(gè)地方政府，這個(gè)地方政府有多少公職人員，為什么要這些公職人員，每一個(gè)公職人員以什么標(biāo)準(zhǔn)給他付工資？還有其他方面。因?yàn)檫@些公職人員是在為納稅人服務(wù)，是我納稅人，通過(guò)納稅養(yǎng)活這些你這些公職人員，那么你說(shuō)他們要不要有發(fā)言權(quán)？

Liu Jianwen: Yes. For example, people feel strong about issues like personal income tax, property tax and vehicle tax. In terms of spending, education, especially compulsory education, and social security insurance all come from the country's spending. To go even further, in a local government, the number of civil servants, why they are hired and based on what criteria they are paid are all to do with government expenditure, because these civil servants are paid by taxpayers. They provide services to taxpayers. Then, don't you think they should have a say?

我們現(xiàn)在是市場(chǎng)經(jīng)濟(jì)，市場(chǎng)經(jīng)濟(jì)所相應(yīng)的是公共財(cái)政，所謂公共財(cái)政是強(qiáng)調(diào)這個(gè)收入是老百姓的，要由老百姓說(shuō)了算，要由納稅人說(shuō)了算。他通過(guò)什么東西說(shuō)了算呢？那就是通過(guò)立法，通過(guò)預(yù)算（法）。這個(gè)支出也應(yīng)該是由老百姓說(shuō)了算，由納稅人說(shuō)了算。如果說(shuō)支出過(guò)程中，其他的家庭成員都不知道，一個(gè)國(guó)家讓所有人都不知道我這個(gè)錢(qián)是怎么花的，我想把錢(qián)給誰(shuí)就給誰(shuí)，我想把錢(qián)投到什么地方就投到什么地方，那你就可以想一想這個(gè)過(guò)程中，這個(gè)支出里會(huì)不會(huì)產(chǎn)生腐敗問(wèn)題。

We are now operating under a market economy, so that should be matched with a public finance system. A public finance system emphasizes that the income belongs to the people. And they should decide how to use the money. How can they decide? Through legislature and through the Budget Law. The expenditure should also be decided by people, or the taxpayers. If, during the process of spending, no family member knows how it's done – the country doesn't let anyone know – it gives the money to whomever and wherever it wants?- it won't be hard to imagine that there will be problems of corruption.

馮欣：我們這次知道人大收到了來(lái)自全國(guó)兩萬(wàn)多公民的33萬(wàn)多條建議和意見(jiàn)，是歷史上第二多的一次。但是在我們的街訪中發(fā)現(xiàn)，很多普通市民根本沒(méi)有聽(tīng)說(shuō)過(guò)《預(yù)算法》，我想問(wèn)問(wèn)您制定《預(yù)算法》的目的到底是什么？《預(yù)算法》這樣一部法是用來(lái)做什么的？

Feng Xin: We know the NPC has received nearly 330,000 comments and suggestions from 20,000 citizens nationwide. That's the second most in history. But during our street interviews, we found many ordinary people have never even heard of the Budget Law, so what is the purpose of making such a law? What is it used for?

劉劍文：因?yàn)槟懔⒎ǖ淖谥际菦Q定這個(gè)法要解決什么問(wèn)題，就是這個(gè)法的靈魂。我們1994年的《預(yù)算法》，當(dāng)時(shí)立法宗旨是這樣規(guī)定的，我這里有一條：“為了強(qiáng)化預(yù)算的分配和監(jiān)督職能，健全國(guó)家對(duì)預(yù)算的管理，加強(qiáng)國(guó)家宏觀調(diào)控，保障經(jīng)濟(jì)和社會(huì)的健康發(fā)展，根據(jù)憲法制定本法。” 這樣一種規(guī)定，應(yīng)該說(shuō)在20世紀(jì)90年代初期這樣規(guī)定我們覺(jué)得還是很合適的。它是強(qiáng)調(diào)國(guó)家對(duì)預(yù)算的一個(gè)管理，強(qiáng)調(diào)一個(gè)宏觀調(diào)控。這里實(shí)際上是強(qiáng)調(diào)對(duì)政府內(nèi)部收支方面的一個(gè)管理。

Liu Jianwen: The purpose of a law depends on what problems we want to solve. It's the soul of a law. We established the current Budget Law in 1994, which specified the law's purpose: "In accordance with the Constitution and for the purposes of strengthening the distribution and supervisory function of budget, improving the budget management of the State, intensifying the micro-scope regulation and control of the State and ensuring the sound socio-economic development, this Law is enacted." In fact, such general provisions were proper in the early 1990s. It emphasizes the government's regulation and control of the State budget. It actually emphasizes the government's management of its internal affairs.

馮欣：就是政府的家務(wù)事？

Feng Xin: Like the government's family affairs?

劉劍文：是說(shuō)政府的一個(gè)問(wèn)題，政府內(nèi)部的一個(gè)事情。但是我們從94年到現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)快20年了，特別我們國(guó)家在90年代末期，在1998年提出公共財(cái)政的問(wèn)題，大家強(qiáng)調(diào)《預(yù)算法》應(yīng)該解決什么問(wèn)題？《預(yù)算法》究竟是政府內(nèi)部的、規(guī)范政府內(nèi)部行為的一個(gè)法律？還是來(lái)控制政府行為的一個(gè)法律？所以大家一個(gè)基本的觀念是我們《預(yù)算法》的核心問(wèn)題是應(yīng)該（建立）一個(gè)規(guī)范政府收支行為的法律。

Liu Jianwen: Yes, like its internal affairs. But now nearly two decades have passed. In particular, since we brought up the idea of public finance in 1998, people have been debating what problems the Budget Law should solve. Is it a law that regulates the government's internal affairs? Or is it a law that disciplines the government's behaviors? Now there has been a general agreement that the core of the issue should be about establishing a law that does the latter.

如果說(shuō)一個(gè)國(guó)家的預(yù)算看上去復(fù)雜而且專業(yè)性強(qiáng)，我們何不以一個(gè)小型機(jī)構(gòu)作為國(guó)家的縮影，看看它怎樣制定預(yù)算？我探訪了劉國(guó)特，他是北京郊區(qū)一家小型出版公司的經(jīng)理，大約有30名雇員。他告訴我他的公司都需要做哪些種類的預(yù)算。

Since a country's budget might often look quite complex and technical, why don't we look at how a much smaller organization makes its budget as a miniature of the big issue? I visited Liu Guote, an owner of a small publishing house in Beijing's suburbs. His company has about 30 employees, and he tells me what types of budgets his company has to make.

劉國(guó)特：其實(shí)我們做預(yù)算的目的，簡(jiǎn)單點(diǎn)說(shuō)就是算一下今年準(zhǔn)備投入多少錢(qián)，到年底我們的收益是多少錢(qián)。預(yù)算現(xiàn)在我們列為第一項(xiàng)最重要的就是員工工資，其次就是我們一些銷(xiāo)售的預(yù)算成本，包括我們的發(fā)行人員出差的差旅費(fèi)，包括日常運(yùn)轉(zhuǎn)費(fèi)用。我們要計(jì)算一些原材料的成本，包括紙張的，印刷的書(shū)款，設(shè)計(jì)等等。

Liu Guote: The purpose of our budgeting, to put it simply, is to estimate how much money we are going to invest this year and how much profit we will get by the end of the year. The most important item in our budgeting is employees' wages. And then, it's our costs of sales, like employees' business trips and other expenditures. We also need to calculate our production costs, like paper, printing, design and so on.

Apart from these regular items, Liu also has some unexpected expenses, like the huge flood that poured into Beijing on July 21.

除了這些開(kāi)支以外，劉國(guó)特還有一些意想不到的開(kāi)支，比如剛剛經(jīng)歷的北京7.21特大洪水。

劉國(guó)特：現(xiàn)在還能聞到一股這里的霉味兒，現(xiàn)在那些被泡的就已經(jīng)全部是廢品了。賣(mài)了五十多塊錢(qián)吧。

Liu Guote: We can still smell the mustiness here. Those soaked books are all ruined now. They were recycled for 50 yuan.

馮欣：一共就五十多塊錢(qián)？

Feng Xin: Only 50 yuan?

劉國(guó)特：按照成本算的話是十萬(wàn)塊錢(qián)吧。

Liu Guote: Yes. They actually cost 100,000 yuan.

And there is more…

劉國(guó)特還有更多的開(kāi)銷(xiāo)。

劉國(guó)特：接待基本就是餐飲費(fèi)用，甚至到北京周邊的旅游費(fèi)用都在里面，很多成本沒(méi)法算的。

Liu Guote: We also have hospitality expenses, like dinner or even tours around Beijing. Those were impossible to calculate.

如果我們解構(gòu)一下劉國(guó)特的預(yù)算，我們可以發(fā)現(xiàn)他公司的收入主要來(lái)源于利潤(rùn)，而支出則包括更多類別，比如員工的工資福利、生產(chǎn)成本、市場(chǎng)開(kāi)發(fā)，以及無(wú)法意料的自然災(zāi)害和接待費(fèi)用。

If we break down the budget of Liu's company, we can find the income mainly comes from profits. The expenses, on the other hand, cover more categories, such as employees' wages and benefits, production costs, market research and development, as well as unexpected disaster relief and hospitality expenses.

于一個(gè)國(guó)家來(lái)說(shuō)也是同樣的道理，中國(guó)于1994年通過(guò)了《預(yù)算法》。根據(jù)媒體報(bào)道，立法者早在2004年就開(kāi)始修訂這部法律了，但是直到2011年12月才進(jìn)行了一審，2012年6月進(jìn)行了二審。根據(jù)國(guó)家統(tǒng)計(jì)局的數(shù)據(jù)，1994年，中國(guó)的財(cái)政收入為5210多億元，到2011年，財(cái)政收入已達(dá)到10萬(wàn)億，比94年增長(zhǎng)了19倍。

Similar principles apply to a country. China passed its Budget Law in 1994. According to various media reports, lawmakers started amending the law in 2004, but the first hearing of the draft amendment didn't take place until December 2011, and second hearing this June. According to China's National Bureau of Statistics, the country's total revenue reached 521 billion yuan ($82 billion) in 1994. By 2011, it had gone up to 10 trillion yuan ($1.58 trillion), more than 19 times what it was in 1994.

現(xiàn)行的《預(yù)算法》將中國(guó)的預(yù)算系統(tǒng)分成兩種：中央政府和地方政府。兩者都是主要從四種渠道獲得收入：第一，各項(xiàng)稅收收入；第二，政府性基金，比如發(fā)行彩票、出讓土地的收入，以及各種收費(fèi)；第三，國(guó)有資本經(jīng)營(yíng)，指政府通過(guò)占有和利用自然資源、修建鐵路、電站等方式獲得的收入；第四，社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)基金，指政府通過(guò)投資社會(huì)保險(xiǎn)基金獲得的收益。

The current Budget Law divides the country's budget system into two sorts: the central government and local governments. Both types of governments mainly make money through four sources: First, revenue generated through various levies; second, government-managed funds, such as lottery sales, the sales of State-owned land-use rights and various fees; third, State capital operations, meaning the government makes money from exploiting natural resources, building railways, power plants and so on; and fourth, money generated from government investments in social security insurance funds.

再說(shuō)說(shuō)支出。與一個(gè)小公司相似，中央政府和地方政府要支付公民的社會(huì)福利，比如養(yǎng)老、醫(yī)療、教育、住房保障等。政府同時(shí)還要將錢(qián)用到國(guó)防、基礎(chǔ)設(shè)施和賑災(zāi)等項(xiàng)目上。由于政府還參與各種經(jīng)營(yíng)與投資活動(dòng)，這就會(huì)有生產(chǎn)成本和虧損的錢(qián)。除此之外，中央政府還要將一部分稅收收入返還給地方政府并有時(shí)直接給予地方政府資金，這在中國(guó)叫作“轉(zhuǎn)移支付”。

In terms of expenditures, similar to a small company, both the central government and local governments pay for citizens' social benefits, like pension and health care, education and affordable housing. Governments also spend money on items such as national defense, infrastructure and disaster relief. Since governments take part in various businesses and investments, they also have production costs and losses. Apart from all these items, the central government returns part of its tax revenue to local governments and also directly pays them a certain amount of money, which in China is known as a "transfer payment".

但是中國(guó)現(xiàn)行的預(yù)算體制存在什么問(wèn)題呢？在多大程度上，《預(yù)算法》草案能夠達(dá)到公眾的預(yù)期？我們?cè)谘莶ナ译娫挷稍L了王雍君，他是人大立法者的顧問(wèn)之一。

But what problems does China's current budget system present? To what extent will the draft amendment meet the public's expectations? We called Wang Yongjun from our studio. He is another consultant to the NPC's lawmakers.

馮欣：王教授，我聽(tīng)到一些學(xué)者把《預(yù)算法》叫作“亞憲法”，為什么這么叫呢？

Feng Xin: Professor Wang, I heard some scholars call the Budget Law a "sub-constitution". Why is that?

王雍君：首先是因?yàn)椤额A(yù)算法》所處理的問(wèn)題事關(guān)全體納稅人的整體利益，也事關(guān)政府的攝政能力和執(zhí)政黨的執(zhí)政能力。很少有哪部法律，應(yīng)該說(shuō)是沒(méi)有其他任何法律涉及的問(wèn)題如此重大。在中國(guó)，《預(yù)算法》是唯一一部有關(guān)公款、如何管理公款這樣高度綜合和集成的法律，那么就這一點(diǎn)而言，它的地位其他法律是無(wú)法相提并論的。

Wang Yongjun: First of all, this is because the Budget Law deals with affairs that are related to all taxpayers as a whole. It's also related to the government and the ruling party's governance. Rarely are there any laws – in fact, no other laws – that deal with issues as important as this. In China, Budget Law is the only comprehensive law that regulates public funds. As far as this, the status of the law can't be matched by other laws.

馮欣：我聽(tīng)到一些學(xué)者說(shuō)，制定《預(yù)算法》的目的之一，是來(lái)確保政府的收支行為是規(guī)范的，那么這里“規(guī)范”的含義是什么？政府怎樣的收支行為才算是規(guī)范的？

Feng Xin: I heard some scholars say one of the purposes of making the Budget Law is to discipline the government's revenue and spending behaviors. What does the word “discipline” mean here? What kind of government behaviors can be seen as disciplined?

王雍君：我不認(rèn)為這個(gè)詞非常好地表達(dá)了《預(yù)算法》的法理，如果我們要比較嚴(yán)格和準(zhǔn)確地表達(dá)，所謂“規(guī)范”應(yīng)該做這樣的理解，那就是在民主社會(huì)里，行政部門(mén)處置公款的行為，必須得到立法機(jī)關(guān)的授權(quán)，并且處于立法機(jī)關(guān)的時(shí)時(shí)監(jiān)控之下。我們只有從這個(gè)意義上去理解“規(guī)范”，那么規(guī)范這個(gè)詞才能表述到位。

Wang Yongjun: I don't really think this word describes the legal principle of the Budget Law well. If we are going to rigorously and accurately describe such an idea, "discipline" means that in a democratic society, all government's uses of public funds have to be authorized and constantly monitored by the legislature. Only in this way can we define the word properly.

馮欣：那我們?cè)鯓幼霾拍艽_保公款的安全呢？

Feng Xin: And what can we do to make sure public funds are safe?

王雍君：公款的安全和妥善的管理，主要取決于三道基本的防火墻。第一道就是公款的處置必須獲得立法機(jī)關(guān)的授權(quán)，必須報(bào)告立法機(jī)關(guān)，經(jīng)立法機(jī)關(guān)審查，通過(guò)立法機(jī)關(guān)批準(zhǔn)才能獲得合法性，這是第一道。如果我們說(shuō)公款的處置立法機(jī)關(guān)都不知情，更不能審查，也沒(méi)有批準(zhǔn)的程序，那么我們說(shuō)公款將很可能是不安全的。

Wang Yongjun: The safety of public funds mainly depends on three basic firewalls. The first firewall is that the government has to get authorization from the legislature, report to it and be examined by it, in order to use public funds. Only through the legislature can the government get legitimacy. If the legislature has no way to know how the government uses public funds, examine (the usage) or prove them, we can then say the public funds are very unsafe.

第二道防火墻就是所有的公款都應(yīng)該存放在央行的國(guó)庫(kù)單一賬戶上，中間不能停留在商業(yè)銀行，不能經(jīng)過(guò)商業(yè)銀行過(guò)渡。所有的公款都應(yīng)該從國(guó)庫(kù)單一賬戶直達(dá)政府的供應(yīng)商，中間也不能在商業(yè)銀行過(guò)渡。只有這樣做，所有的公款才能得到最有效的、最便利的、最動(dòng)態(tài)的監(jiān)督。最安全是因?yàn)楣钏娣旁谘胄校胄惺且粋€(gè)監(jiān)管機(jī)構(gòu)，它不是盈利機(jī)構(gòu)。央行在中國(guó)還是政府的銀行，它是對(duì)政府負(fù)責(zé)。而商業(yè)銀行是盈利性的機(jī)構(gòu)，你的錢(qián)存在它的賬戶上，它就要去發(fā)放貸款，發(fā)放貸款發(fā)生損失了怎么辦？那么現(xiàn)在我們這個(gè)體制下，財(cái)政部門(mén)在商業(yè)銀行開(kāi)設(shè)了大量的、應(yīng)該是超過(guò)二十萬(wàn)個(gè)財(cái)政專戶。這些專戶每天、每個(gè)月、每年都有大量的資金流進(jìn)流出，也就是說(shuō)納稅人的很多錢(qián)在現(xiàn)在這個(gè)體制下，有相當(dāng)大的部分，至少超過(guò)30%，現(xiàn)在已經(jīng)脫離國(guó)庫(kù)的監(jiān)督范圍和監(jiān)督能力，是在國(guó)庫(kù)之外運(yùn)作的。

The second firewall is that all public funds should be saved in the central bank's Treasury Single Account (TSA). They shouldn't stay in or be transacted through commercial banks. Also, all public funds should go directly to the government's service providers. They should not go through commercial banks, either. Only by doing so can we monitor public funds most easily and constantly. The central bank is a safe place, because it's an administrative organization rather than a commercial one. In China, the central bank is the government's bank. It's responsible to the government. Commercial banks, however, are for-profit organizations. Once your money is deposited in a commercial bank, it will offer loans. What if it has losses? In our current system, the financial departments have opened an enormous number of accounts in commercial banks, probably more than 200,000 accounts. Every day, large amounts of money flow into and out of these accounts. That is to say, more than 30 percent of taxpayers' money has actually gone out of the treasury's monitoring and administration. the treasury's monitoring and administration.

第三道防火墻是所有的銀行賬戶，應(yīng)該叫政府銀行賬戶，資金流進(jìn)流出，以及余額都必須向立法機(jī)關(guān)報(bào)告。我們現(xiàn)在《預(yù)算法》二審稿里也沒(méi)有規(guī)定必須報(bào)告，這是非常奇怪的一件事。

The third firewall is that all the transactions going through governments' accounts and balances should be made known to the legislature. However, the current draft amendment doesn't say the government has to do so. This is very strange.

馮欣：那我們現(xiàn)在有幾道防火墻呢？

Feng Xin: Then, how many firewalls do we have now?

王雍君：我們現(xiàn)在第一道防火墻名義上有，實(shí)質(zhì)上無(wú)。第二道防火墻名義上有，實(shí)質(zhì)上無(wú)。至于第三道防火墻，名義上也沒(méi)有，實(shí)際上也沒(méi)有，一直到現(xiàn)在。

Wang Yongjun: The first firewall only exists on paper. The second firewall only exists on paper.In terms of the third firewall, it has never even existed on paper.

在收到數(shù)十萬(wàn)的公眾意見(jiàn)后，立法者們現(xiàn)在的進(jìn)程如何？我們撥打了預(yù)算法立法者之一蔡巧萍的電話。

After receiving hundreds of thousands of comments from the public, what have lawmakers been up to? We called NPC Budget Law legislator Cai Qiaoping.

馮欣：收集上來(lái)的意見(jiàn)，大家最多的是反映什么問(wèn)題？

Feng Xin: From all the comments collected, what are the most talked-about issues?

蔡巧萍：根據(jù)意見(jiàn)在我們?nèi)舜蟪Ｎ瘯?huì)這邊也是有分工的，主要是由法工委來(lái)做，我是預(yù)算工委的。我得到的消息還是各方面意見(jiàn)都比較多，可能加強(qiáng)人大監(jiān)督或者是國(guó)庫(kù)管理這一塊比較多。

Cai Qiaoping: In fact, we have divisions in the NPC's Standing Committee. The Law Commission mainly deals with public opinions, and I belong to the Budget Commission. From what I have heard, there are all sorts of opinions. Enhancing the people's congresses' monitoring and the treasury's administration are most often talked about.

馮欣：現(xiàn)在《預(yù)算法》的修改進(jìn)行到什么程度了？

Feng Xin: What's going on in the process of amending the law?

蔡巧萍：大概的程序就是根據(jù)意見(jiàn)，看哪些意見(jiàn)比較集中，研究之后再修改草案。因?yàn)槌Ｎ瘯?huì)兩個(gè)月開(kāi)一次，八月份一次，十月份一次，十二月份一次，那就看哪一次的常委會(huì)再提起第三次審議。

Cai Qiaoping: A rough procedure is that we collect opinions, categorize and study them before amending the draft amendment. The Standing Committee's meeting is held every two months. There was one in August. One will be in October and one in December. We will see when we will bring it up to the Standing Committee for its third hearing.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國(guó)預(yù)算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國(guó)的預(yù)算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學(xué)生就業(yè)難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經(jīng)常聽(tīng)到畢業(yè)生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國(guó)有沒(méi)有足夠的養(yǎng)老錢(qián)？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領(lǐng)多少錢(qián)？到什么年齡應(yīng)該計(jì)劃養(yǎng)老問(wèn)題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國(guó)人是否應(yīng)該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會(huì)保障部提出，未來(lái)會(huì)逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會(huì)原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國(guó)人：中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國(guó)人日益增多，是否意味著中國(guó)成為機(jī)會(huì)的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個(gè)概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法：難點(diǎn)

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國(guó)》探討中國(guó)反家庭暴力立法進(jìn)程中長(zhǎng)期存在的阻力和分歧。