Transcript ·　文字實錄

馮欣：很多中國的大學畢業生經常自嘲，自己的“畢業等于失業"， 但是人力資源和社會保障部最新的一份就業報告顯示，崗位空缺其實大于求職的人數。是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難"？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些招工的雇主？在這個畢業季，《解析中國》將用兩期節目為您深度解析這些問題。第一期關注“供"，提供工作的人，第二期關注“求"，尋求工作的人。首先讓我們聽聽招聘會上的雇主們都怎么說

Feng Xin: Many college graduates often mock their graduation as a "ceremony of unemployment". But the latest job market report from the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security shows the jobs available actually outnumber job seekers. What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? This graduation season, Digest China will present a two-part series taking a close look at these questions. The first episode will focus on those who supply jobs, and the second part will look at those who demand jobs. First, let's go to a couple of job fairs to find out what employers have to say.

記者:從用人單位的角度來講，您認為招工難嗎？

Respondent: From an employer's point of view, is it difficult to recruit workers?

受訪者：現在來說，招到合適的人員確實是比較難的

Respondent: It is difficult to recruit the right people.

受訪者：我們今年尤其感覺比較難。坦率地講，高端的、研發類的人才，包括工程技術人員比較難。

Respondent: We find this year particularly hard. High-end, research and development and engineering staff members are difficult to recruit.

記者：您能具體給我講一下難在哪里嗎？

Reporter: Can you tell me specifically what makes it difficult to recruit workers?

受訪者：現在學生一步入社會感覺特別迷茫，有的是不知道自己想找什么樣工作。

Respondent: Graduates are confused when they step into society. Some have no idea what kind of jobs they are looking for.

受訪者：最大困難就是跟所有的人講解，這是很大的困難，我覺得現在大學生大部分不去了解公司，對企業文化了解不是很深，他（們）是盲目地去投簡歷。

Respondent: The biggest difficulty is explaining (the job) to everyone. I think most graduates don't spend time learning about the company. They know little about the company's entrepreneurial culture but blindly send their resumes.

受訪者：怎么講呢？比如說他在我這工作大概兩三個月，或者說時間不太長，就可能發生離職這種現象。

Respondent：For example, some may work here for only two to three months before quitting the job.

受訪者：過去招工我們是一年招一次，現在變成常態化的了，幾乎可能兩三個月就得來招，人員變動特別大。

Respondent: In the past, we recruited new employees once a year, but now we do it regularly. We almost have to recruit every two or three months. Employees flow quite frequently.

受訪者：應聘者都是站在自己的角度去思考，就是說這企業你能給我多少，給我多少錢，我才去你那里面試。

Respondent: Job seekers all think from their own stance. They only care about the salary offered even before attending a job interview.

受訪者：他們有時候可能把自己想得太高了，就是咱們通常說的眼高手低。

Respondent: They sometimes think too highly of themselves.

受訪者：連他們自己都不知道去選擇什么行業, 難就難在這了。

Respondent: The difficulty lies in the fact that they don't even know what job they want.

記者：招聘的過程中，應聘者比較關注的問題有哪些？

Reporter：What issues do job seekers care about most when looking for a job?

受訪者：薪金，主要就是薪金，還有未來的發展空間。

Respondent: Salary. Mainly salary. And also their future development.

記者：在招工的過程中，有哪些素質是你們用人單位看重，而應聘者卻普遍比較缺乏的？

Reporter：What qualities do you value and expect from job candidates but most of whom lack?

受訪者：態度吧，第一點。這個招聘會市場這么多人在招聘，甚至我們面試官比這些應聘的都多，他們覺得無所謂，我可以再選擇下一個。

Respondent: First of all, attitude. There are many employers in this job market – even more than job seekers. They think it doesn't matter, because they can always choose the next (employer).

受訪者：對自己的一種規劃性，很多人是看不清自己的。

Respondent: Self-planning. Many people can't see themselves through.

受訪者：我最看中的是他的學習能力。

Respondent: I value most the ability to learn.

受訪者：就是對文化的認同感吧。

Respondent: A sense of company identity.

記者：那如果讓您用一個詞來形容招工的過程，您會用什么詞呢？

Reporter：Which word would you choose to describe the process of recruitment?

受訪者：摸著石頭過河。

Respondent: Wade across the stream by feeling the way. (Chinese idiom)

受訪者：糾結吧。

Respondent: Struggling.

受訪者：磨練，我覺得這是對我自己（的）一個磨練。

Respondent: Exercise. I think it's an exercise for myself.

用人單位為什么招不到足夠的人？更重要的是，合適的人？在回答這個問題之前，讓我們先看一下事情的全貌。

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers, and more importantly, ideal workers? Before answering this question, let's take a look at the big picture.

2011年，用人單位共招聘人員近2070萬次，有1960萬人求職。也就是說，每100個求職者相對應的崗位是106個。2012年第一季度，這一比例上升至100比108，這些數據來自人力資源和社會保障部對全國100多個城市勞動市場的監測。

In 2011, China provided nearly 20.7 million jobs for 19.6 million job seekers. This means for every 100 candidates there were 106 jobs available. The ratio went up to 100:108 in the first quarter of 2012. These numbers come from the Ministry of Human Resources and Social Security's job-market monitoring of about 100 Chinese cities.

2011年，中國的第三產業需要的人數最多，占總用人需求的59％。相比之下，第二產業約占40％，第一產業1.8％。但是從2001年到2011年，第三產業，如服務業和批發零售業需求的人數下降了13%。第二產業，如制造業和建筑業需求的人數增長了13%。百分之八十八的用人單位對求職者的文化程度有要求，大部分（38.5%）要求求職者有高中文化程度，這38.5%中，有超過60％的用人單位要求中等職業技術學歷。在所有對文化程度有要求的用人單位中，只有8.5％要求求職者有大學學歷。

As of 2011, China's tertiary industry demanded the most employees, taking up to 59 percent of all job seekers, whereas the second industry took up around 40 percent and the primary industry, 1.8 percent. However, the tertiary industry, with fields like services and retail, needed 13 percent fewer employees between 2001 and 2011, whereas the second industry, which includes manufacturing and construction among others, needed 13 percent more. Eighty-eight percent of employers have specific education requirements for job candidates. Many require a high school education. Of that 38.5 percent, more than 60 percent require professional diplomas. Of employers who do have education requirements, only 8.5 percent require university diplomas or bachelor's degrees.

這些年中國勞動市場究竟有什么變化？我們在演播室電話采訪了中國就業促進會副會長陳宇。

How has China's job market changed over the years? We called Chen Yu from our studio. He is the vice-chairman of the China Association for Employment Promotion.

馮欣：陳副會長，這幾年我們國家的就業形勢發生了什么變化？

Feng Xin: Mr Chen, how has China's job market changed in recent years?

陳宇：過去我們是兩頭，一頭是低素質的、勞動能力比較弱的群體就業有困難，主要是農民工，也包括下崗再就業的人員；還有一組困難的群體，就是大學生。這幾年就出現一個新的情況，農民工是越來越不困難了，大學生就業困難，而且越來越困難。

Chen Yu: In the past, two groups had difficulties (finding jobs). One consisted of people with limited education and capability, who were mainly migrant workers and laid-off workers. Another group was college graduates. (But) a new phenomenon emerged in recent years. It's getting less difficult for migrant workers to find jobs but even more difficult for college graduates.

馮欣：這個變化是從什么時候開始的？

Feng Xin: Since when did this occur?

陳宇：大概應該是從最近五年，可能是這樣兩個原因：農民工這邊，農民工的年齡結構和訴求都發生變化，現在90后的農民工，他們不會只滿足于有一個工作，掙一份工資，你用過去的廉價勞動力的政策來吸引他們已經是不可能了。大學生的問題是這樣，我們國家的大學擴招第一批畢業生應該是在2003年，就是從2003到2012這十年內，大學畢業生的人數從一百萬增加到七百萬，勞動力市場上大學生的供給越來越多，但是中國的經濟始終還是處在全球產業鏈的低端，它對高素質、高技能勞動者的需求是有限的。

Chen Yu: About five years ago. I think there were two reasons. In terms of migrant workers, their age and requests have changed significantly. Many migrant workers who were born in the 1990s are no longer satisfied with making a simple living. It's no longer possible to attract them with a cheap-labor policy. In terms of college graduates, the expansion of college admission has brought significant changes. The first batch of students (of the expansion) graduated in 2003. From 2003 to 2012, the number of college graduates increased from 1 million to 7 million. Although there are more college graduates in the labor market, China has limited needs toward qualified and high-skilled workers, because its economy is still at the bottom end of the global industrial chain.

雖然崗位空缺大于求職人數，但是要求大學學歷的用人單位卻很有限，那么中國大學生的就業情況究竟如何呢？

Although it seems China has more jobs available than job seekers, those jobs that require a college degree are quite limited. At what rate are China's college graduates finding employment?

三月，一家獨立研究機構，麥可思研究院對中國2000多所大學的25萬名大學畢業生進行了問卷調查。根據麥可思的研究報告，2011年，中國有600多萬名大學畢業生，其中，90.2％在畢業后6個月找到了工作。這家機構還發現，2008屆大學畢業生畢業三年內，平均為2.3個雇主工作過。

In March, My China Occupational Skills, or MyCOS, an independent research institute, conducted a survey of more than 250,000 college graduates from more than 2,000 Chinese universities and colleges. According to MyCOS, China had 6 million college graduates in 2011, and 90.2 percent of them found jobs six months after they graduated. The institute also found that on average college graduates of 2008 worked for 2.3 employers in three years.

我們怎樣理解這些數字？我們采訪了麥可思的研究總監郭嬌。

What do these numbers mean? We directed our questions to Guo Jiao, MyCOS' chief research officer.

馮欣：有人說現在大學生的競爭力還不如農民工，對于這種觀點，您怎么看？

Feng Xin: Some say nowadays college students are not even as competitive as migrant workers. What do you think of this opinion?

郭嬌：首先，我覺得中國大學生的競爭對手不是民工，也不是中職畢業生，因為他們所從事的（行業）還是比較高端的，不管是技術型、應用型，還是研究型的這樣一些工作是民工無法完成的。而且很多社會上的這種比較，是把一個剛剛踏上職場的、新鮮的大學畢業生，跟一個可能已經有很多年經驗的民工來比較，而且只是他們在當時的收入水平。如果你把一個同樣沒有經驗的大學生和民工比較、如果你可以同時跟蹤他們三年到五年看他們以后收入的增長情況，他們在用人單位里面職位的晉升情況，我相信剛才那個結論可能會被改寫。

Guo Jiao: First, I don't think migrant workers or vocational school graduates are competing with college graduates, because the latter are still engaged in more intellectually oriented jobs. There are certain jobs that migrant workers are not able to do, like those related to research, technology and application. Nowadays there are a lot of such comparisons, which compares a fresh college graduate with possibly a very experienced migrant worker as well as their current income levels. But if you compare a fresh college graduate with a novice migrant worker, and look at their income levels and promotion in three or five years, I believe it would be a different scenario.

馮欣：所以就是說，看三年到五年長期的情況其實更重要。

Feng Xin: So, it's more important to look at the question with a long-term perspective.

郭嬌：對，而且要看他們原來有沒有相關的、從事這個行業的經驗。

Guo Jiao: Yes, and we also need to see if they have any relevant experience.

馮欣：在我們的街訪中，很多用人單位的雇主反映他們招的很多大學生，有的甚至在三個月就換了工作，就離職了，然后他們的流動性很大，您怎么樣看待這種現象？

Feng Xin: In our street interviews, many employers said a lot of college graduates quit their jobs within three months. Their mobility is very high. What do you think of this?

郭嬌：這種離職率都是由畢業生主動提出的，主要原因我們當時追問了，就是不符合他的期待，可能福利、收入方面偏低。所以，一方面我會覺得這不一定是一件壞的事情，因為說明現在勞動力市場提供了一些空間，讓畢業生可以自由地選擇；但是另一方面，不管是對用人單位，還是對畢業生來說，這是對他們的一個（損失），不管是他投入的時間，接受的培訓，都是一種損失。所以從一開始應聘的過程，到進入用人單位對他入職的培訓、對他以后發展空間的規劃，我覺得這是需要用人單位和畢業生雙方一起來解決的問題。

Guo Jiao: Such resignation is brought up by college graduates themselves. We asked about the reasons. It's mainly because the salary and welfare are lower than their expectations. Therefore, on the one hand, I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, because it shows the labor market provides college graduates with some free options. But on the other hand, it's a loss for both employers and college graduates in terms of the time and effort they invested. Therefore, I think employers and graduates should work problems out together from the very beginning of recruitment, to training and to the employee's future development.

如果大學畢業生和用人單位能一起解決問題，那是再好不過的了，但是在我們的采訪中，雇主們似乎對大學生有很多指控，所以，我們再次把問題提給了陳宇。

It would be ideal if employers and college graduates could work problems out together, but from our interviews with employers, it seems they have quite a few complaints about college graduates. So again, we spoke to Chen Yu.

馮欣：陳副會長，我們看到用人單位經常說招人并不難，但是招到合適的人特別難，這是什么原因呢?

Feng Xin: Mr Chen, we often hear employers say it's not difficult to recruit people but very difficult to recruit the right people. Why is that?

陳宇：問題的實質就在這個地方。每一個企業都需要能人，都需要有經驗、有專業知識、創造性、能動性的人。但是實際上，在職場上你會看到，真正敬業的員工在整個職工隊伍中只占一個很小的比例，美國的統計是20％到30％，50％以上的員工是當一天和尚撞一天鐘，就是你讓我干什么我就干什么，還有20％的人根本不適應職場，來上班就很痛苦，這是美國的情況，我認為全世界的職場都是這樣。

Chen Yu: That's the core of the problem. Every company needs capable people with experience, professional skills, creativity and motivation. But you will see those really dedicated employees only take up a small proportion of all workers. A US survey found the percentage lies between 20 percent and 30 percent. More than 50 percent of employees drift through each day and only do whatever they are asked to do. Another 20 percent don't fit into the workplace and feel pained to go to work. This is in the US, but I think it applies to workplaces worldwide.

馮欣：我們采訪的一些雇主還告訴我們，他們認為現在的大學生普遍存在一個問題，就是自己不想著為企業創造價值，反而對自己定位不準，高估自己的價值，向企業索要高薪、高職、高福利。您怎么看待企業對大學生的這種指控？

Feng Xin: Some employers told us they believe there is a wide problem existing among college graduates. They think many graduates never try to create value for their companies but think too highly of themselves by asking for higher salaries, positions and welfare. What do you think of such complaints?

陳宇：因為企業、職場是硬約束，它不是慈善機構，也不是義務教育。它用人的目標就是為本企業創造價值、創造利潤，所以我就說這個叫“硬約束"。只有你服從它，沒有它服從你的。

Chen Yu: Companies and employers exercise hard constraints. They are neither charity organizations nor schools offering compulsory education. Their primary goal is to make a profit. That's why I call it "hard constraints", meaning employees are the ones to follow rules, not the other way round.

招工者也許對大學畢業生有諸多抱怨，但后者是否就應該付全部責任呢？我們電話采訪了21世紀教育研究院副院長熊丙奇。

While employers might have complaints about college graduates, are the latter the only party to be blamed? We also called Xiong Bingqi, the vice-president at the 21 Century Education Research Institute.

熊丙奇：用人單位肯定選擇企業利益的最大化，但是有的時候也要考慮到學生的薪資待遇的要求，因為只考慮到單方面的利益沒有一個雙贏的態勢，其實也很難形成長久的合作關系。我們注意到，現在在求職應聘過程中間有很多霸王條款，還有很多單位還是以低廉的勞動力來對待大學生，這個實際上是不符合企業的長年戰略的，也不可能讓這個企業變成一個非常強大的公司。

Xiong Bingqi: It's natural for employers to maximize profits, but they also need to think about graduates' request on salaries. Without a win-win attitude, between employers and employees, it would be difficult to establish long-term cooperation. We can find there are a lot of unfair conditions for employees during recruitment. Many employers still treat college students as cheap laborers. This is in fact not helpful for the company's long-term development. Nor will it make the company grow bigger.

馮欣：熊博士，一些雇主還告訴我們他們面臨的一個問題，也是造成他們招工難的一個原因，就是大學生在短期內跳槽、離職的現象比較嚴重。我們獲得的一個數據顯示40%多的大學生，在畢業三年內換了工作，那么您怎么看待這種現象呢？

Feng Xin: Dr Xiong, some employers told us another problem they are facing, which also contributes to the difficulty in recruiting employees. That is, it's quite common for college graduates to quit their jobs after a short period. We learned that more than 40 percent of college graduates have changed jobs within three years of their graduation. What do you think of this?

熊丙奇：我覺得兩個關鍵的問題：一個問題是企業的問題，就是我們的企業是不是有能力留住我們的大學生，這是一個很關鍵的，你不能去把責任全部推給學生。我們可以注意到，現在很多企業其實已經形成很嚴重的惡性循環了，就是它招來學生就想派上用場，馬上就給公司創造價值，不愿給新進來的大學生進行培訓，因為他們也樂于去在其他的單位挖那些畢業一兩年的學生過來工作。所以說，那些學生怎么跳槽的？就這樣跳槽的，就是我們很多企業急功近利，短期的行為導致了這種短期跳槽越來越嚴重。每一個企業也應該承擔這個學生社會化的過程、職業化的過程，如果企業都不愿意承擔培養成本，結果就是大家都助長了短期跳槽的風氣。

Xiong Bignqi: I think there are two key problems. One lies with employers: Are they capable of keeping college graduates? This is essential. You can't blame the graduates for everything. You may notice many companies have already created a vicious cycle. They want to put fresh college graduates in immediate use and create profit. They hesitate to train these graduates, because they are more willing to steal employees who have a couple of years of experiences from other companies. That's how frequent job-hopping happens. Many employers are very shortsighted and seek quick success. They've made the problem worse. Every employer should take the responsibility of helping graduates become socialized and professional. If employers are all unwilling to do so, they would just help foster an environment for frequent job-hopping.

馮欣：好的，謝謝您

Feng Xin: All right, thank you.

馮欣：在這一期節目中，我們重點關注招工者，專家們在采訪中說，中國的產業結構和勞動力市場的變化、中國高校的擴招，以及招工者和求職者對彼此不同的預期都是造成招工難的原因。但是求職者呢？是什么讓大學生求職困難呢？請鎖定我們的下一期節目

Feng Xin: In this episode, we focused on those who supply jobs. The experts we interviewed said the changes in China's economic structure and work force, the expansion of China's higher education and the dissymmetry in the expectations between employers and college graduates all make it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers. But what about the job seekers? What makes it difficult for college graduates to find jobs? Please be sure to join us in our next episode.

Archive · 往期

Watching China’s budget
解析中國預算

How can ordinary people make sense of China's budget?
普通人如何能弄懂中國的預算？

What makes it difficult for graduates to find jobs?
大學生就業難，難在哪？

Why do we often hear stories about college graduates unable to find jobs? -- 為什么我們經常聽到畢業生找不到工作的事？

Does China have enough jobs for college graduates?招工難，難在哪？

What makes it difficult for employers to recruit enough workers? And what makes it difficult for job seekers to find such employers? 是什么造成了用人單位的“招工難”？又是什么讓求職者難以找到這些雇主？

Does China have enough money to fund its pensioners?
中國有沒有足夠的養老錢？

How much money can we receive after we retire? At what age should we start planning our retirement? 退休后我們到底能領多少錢？到什么年齡應該計劃養老問題？

Should Chinese people retire later?
中國人是否應該晚退休？

In what social context is the government’s proposal to push back China's retirement age rooted? 6月5日，人力資源和社會保障部提出，未來會逐步將退休年齡推遲五年。這樣做有什么深層的社會原因？

Illegal immigrants: China's rise as a land of opportunity?
“三非”外國人：中國成為機會之地？

Is the increase of incidents involving illegal immigrants a symbol of China's rise as a land of opportunity? -- "三非"外國人日益增多，是否意味著中國成為機會的土壤？

Legislating domestic violence in China: Concepts - 中國反家庭暴力立法：概念

Digest China explores the concept of domestic violence and the difficulty in proving it. 本期探討“家庭暴力”這個概念的本身和取證的困難。

Legislating domestic violence in China: Obstacles - 中國反家庭暴力立法：難點

Digest China explores some decade-long obstacles and difficulties in the process. 本期《解析中國》探討中國反家庭暴力立法進程中長期存在的阻力和分歧。